When it comes to workplace communication, passive voice often leads to a lack of clarity and ambiguity. Thus communicating in an active voice holds significance as it enhances the clarity, accountability, and efficiency of your message while projecting confidence and authority.
In episode 8 of Leaders People Love series, Eleanor Tan, Internal Communications and Employee Engagement Leader highlights the role of effective communication in building trust, fostering engagement, and navigating times of change. She underscores the need for leaders to be approachable, empathetic, and self-aware.
Connect with Eleanor Tan at https://www.linkedin.com/in/eleanor-oh/
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TRANSCRIPTION
Chuen Chuen: Welcome to agile leaders conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human centered professionals and leaders to share what it means to lead in today’s workplaces. From their personal stories, find out how they overcame challenges and forge a better way forward. These insights will maximize your leadership potential and unlock possibilities for a better future.
My name is Chuen Chuen I’m the author of Leaders people love a guide for agile leaders to creating great workplaces and happy employees. I’m delighted to have you listening today.
My guest today is Eleanor Tan, whose communications experience spans across diverse sectors, such as finance, shipping, and logistics, education and healthcare. She was also recently named as an international thought leader in internal communications by the university of Florida’s college of journalism and communications.
Welcome to the show, Eleanor. It’s a pleasure to have you. Let’s dive right in. Tell us about yourself, your name, what you do, and why you do what you do.
Eleanor: My name is Eleanor. That’s how I generally like to be called. That’s the British pronunciation. Contrary to what a lot of people think, I wasn’t named after Eleanor Rigby, the Beatles song. I have no idea why my parents called me Eleanor, but okay, good.
I’ve been in the communication space for quite some time. I started out as a writer in an editorial and design agency. After that, I moved over to doing communications that was many years ago. But I find that I do enjoy what I’m doing because I think there’s real impact when you are able to persuade and change behaviors as a result of good communications.
So I’ve worked in a variety of companies across sectors from education to publishing to a bit of healthcare, finance right now, and also before this, I was in shipping for four years. Overall, I think, it’s really enriched me as a person because, I learned a lot about communications across different target audiences. That’s a kind of a brief summary.
Chuen Chuen: Yeah. And this is a topic very close to my heart. In my work, as I work with leaders from various sectors, levels, and there’s increased diversity in general. Communications is so important and you’re right, it is the real impact that we can bring about when we persuade, when we communicate properly, right?
In this series of podcasts, it’s about how managers can become the type of leaders that people want to work with work for. So in your experience, in your vast experience, who’s the first person that comes to mind?
Eleanor: It’s a leader that I worked with recently. He used to be based in Singapore, but he’s actually relocated back to the US. To me he’s a fantastic leader because he’s human centric, he’s warm, he’s genuine, yet he drives results. But, I think leadership is about people going on a journey with you, right? A good leader is about bringing people with you. And I think that he has been able to do that. He inspires people to want to do their best, actually. I felt that in working with him. He’s a tough leader, actually. He has very high standards, but you feel that you are actually becoming better at your work by working with him.
What I like about working with great leaders is that they challenge my thinking. And they’re able to help me see other perspectives that might have become blind spots, right? I love it when they trigger my. At the end of it, they do also recognize that I am the subject matter expert. And they leave me to make decisions based on my expertise and experience. So I think that he’s a fantastic leader, and I’ve also seen that in a lot of the other great leaders that I’ve worked.
So being warm and genuine yet being a tough leader with results, right? That is a balance that is so difficult to achieve based on your observations. What are some specific things this leader or the great leaders that we have worked with, what have they done to balance between being warm and tough?
I think, for the times that I hit roadblocks, or I just had brain freeze, I can actually go out to my leaders and tell them, hey, I have this issue. What do you think? And my leaders have always made time for me and I think that made a difference because I felt that they had my back.
And I think these great leaders that I work with, they have very high levels of self awareness as well, right? And I think, leaders know when they need to step in, when they actually need to take a step back, actually. I wish that there’s a magic formula, but I think my leaders themselves are also on their own journey of learning actually.
Yeah. Okay, this is very specific. So specifically, they make time for people to listen to their concerns. You know that they are not patronizing you.
Yeah, exactly. So far the leaders that I’ve worked with have been professional, very self aware and culturally savvy. So in a sense it, it’s been a real pleasure working with them.
Chuen Chuen: Okay, culture savvy. I wanna dive a bit more into that because increasingly this has come up a lot. For women leaders I work with, they will talk about leading with vulnerability, authentically for global leaders than cultural savvy. How can a leader begin to develop that, especially they come from a background where it’s quite homogeneous?
Eleanor: Take a genuine interest in the cultures that you’re engaging with. Spend time in the offices, not just within the office, but go out and experience the culture and the life. In my previous jobs, whenever I have leaders who come to Singapore, we’ll always take them to eat zi cai, which is all this local food in a coffee shop, a local eatery, rather than a fancy restaurant, because, we really wanted them to experience local culture. And I’m sure if you were to talk to a person from that country and say, hey, I really want to understand your culture a bit more, I’m sure they’ll be willing to tell you about it, actually.
Chuen Chuen: Awesome. And I believe it also has to do with the questions they ask.
Yes.
So in my leadership storytelling program, there’s one segment we call asking crazy good questions because these questions can unlock possibilities, expand your perspectives, which is something that you enjoy when your leaders able to expand your perspective and I’m sure they’ve asked you some pretty crazy good questions as well.
I’m trying to remember.
So earlier we spoke about the balance between warm and tough. What about the balance between asking tough questions to challenge thinking versus challenging the person. How can leaders get that balance right? How do I ask a question that challenges the thinking and not attack the person?
I think it’s really asking with the intent of mitigating the issue or making the outcome better.
So, really focusing on the task itself and using neutral language. Or it could be, Oh, have you thought about this? Did you consider this? It’s very non threatening language. It’s not, you mean you didn’t think about this? It is quite different, right? The way you approach it. It takes the scary factor away and I think this also ties in with what lot of people have talked about right now, right? About psychological safety in a place.
So I think, it’s really offering that psychological safety. It’s also offering that confidence that if you don’t know the answer, it’s okay. We will find the answer together. It’s not career ending. That’s why I also tell my own team, because the thing is, as you ask questions, you get clarity yourself as well. It’s really an art of how to ask a question, actually, I think, a lot of my leaders modeled the way for me.
Very good. So the art of asking questions in a non threatening way.
Eleanor: Yep.
Chuen Chuen: So for organizations that want to build a culture of psychological safety, train your leaders to ask questions in a non threatening way using a neutral language. Take the fear away.
Exactly. Or, it could also be, a case whereby, hey, I didn’t know about this. Can you tell me or can you tell me more? I think, can you tell me more is also a very open way of encouraging conversation, right? And inviting the other party into the situation here.
[Eleanor: I think we’re all capable of diffusing a situation. I think part of my experience over the years has been dealing with crisis communications as well. A lot of very high stakes and all that, right? Sometimes, emotions can get a bit afraid. I think it helps when the leader of the organization is able to actually bring everyone together and just pause, know that it sounds contradictory, but, it’s really taking a collective deep breath and say, okay, this is what we need to do, how should we do it? Do we have the resources at hand? Do we have the facts at hand and for me because you know I do media and all that, right? I’ve seen such things happen before as well which is why I am confident that it can be done
Chuen Chuen: Okay, this part about keeping a cool under pressure because there has been increased cases of say bosses are very harsh, because they are very pressurized, because they are stressed. They have to keep delivering. And I think without adequate rest, tempers are a bit hot. What’s your personal advice to leaders who are now feeling very stretched and sometimes really struggle to keep the lid on.
Eleanor: I need some of that advice myself. It may sound a bit funny when I say this, but literally I was just telling a team member yesterday to sleep, right? There are some times that I’m just so exhausted that I go to bed at 7 30 p. m. You’ll be surprised because you wake up like a brand new person.
Of course, there are different types of interventions, right? For me, it’s also having that regular regime. Exercise a few times a week. Trying to get enough sleep. Note the word trying. Yeah. But, also having that That connection with my friends and family.
I think one of the things which really influenced me was many years ago, my best friend lost his father very suddenly. That changed him as a person and he took one year off work to grieve. And he said, Eleanor, always have the right perspective on work. Because on the day you die, your inbox will still be full, I know it sounds a bit morbid, but I’m like, hey, it’s true. There’s really no shortage of emails or things to do, right? Making a very conscious decision to rest is beneficial to yourself and those around you as well so that, you don’t treat them as verbal punching bags. Again, it’s also back to the concept of self awareness as well, I suspect a lot of us know what we should do, but whether we should do, whether we actually do it is another question, right?
Chuen Chuen: That’s precisely right. How big is your team right now?
Eleanor: There’s me in Singapore. I’ve got one in Thailand and one in Vietnam.
Chuen Chuen: Yeah, so you lead a team a remote team. Would you say that? So this is like a perfect example because a lot of leaders are also trying to navigate this space. How do you manage a remote team effectively?
What have you learned about leadership that you try to pass on to your team?
Eleanor: I think it’s about modeling the way. I really had leaders who did that for me. I worked for seven years in Wiley, the global publisher. And one of the key titles is the leadership challenge, so we went through that. And one of the five practices, is model the way and encourage the heart. And I feel that the leaders that have shaped me a lot as to who I am today. They modeled the way for me. If you want commitment, they model commitment. If they want trust, they trusted you first, right?
So I think, that’s something that I try to do for my teams. And at the same time, I have to say I don’t know what the answers and, they know it better than me. And also because, some of these are situational right on the ground. So I rely on them as well. I think, it is really that approach of trusting your people and also seeing. If there are challenges that really need me to step in, I actually need my team to tell me, okay, exactly what’s the issue here? What do you want me to achieve on your behalf actually?
So it’s getting their input into power. You don’t want to be like eagle coming in and crap, make a lot of noise. And then just leave, right? No, it’s really about that partnership approach with my team as well.
Chuen Chuen: And this story brings to mind, who has the monkey? So when you talk about the leadership challenge, the five practices of exemplary leadership, that is also something I do in my previous career, I used to be a mathematics teacher and I also led the student leadership development and the leadership challenge is the model. So hearing how it can be practiced with a lot of relevance in a workplace is a great example. And this model is actually very easy to translate which is excellent. Like for example, if you say that trust is important, you trust them first. And trust comes out actually a lot.
So that specific example where you talked about if your team needs you to come in, the way you frame it for them is, it still keeps accountability on them.
Eleanor: Yeah, exactly. I also try to approach it as a learning opportunity for them as well. Because I feel that good leaders, good managers we should actually take the interest in the professional development of our teams, actually.
Again, I’ve been a beneficiary of leaders who have believed in that actually. I try to do my bit and making the world a better place by passing this on actually.
Chuen Chuen: A lot of organizations or a lot of training companies will say leader as coach, but what does it mean? Or they go and attend a coaching skills for managers workshop and they take the definition too literally. You only ask question, but sometimes there is a clear knowledge gap. You need to know how to calibrate.
Did you at any point in time feel like, Oh, I’m too busy. Oh, I don’t have time to ask these questions.
Eleanor: The struggle is real. And I think there are times that upon reflection, right? After that particular incident or situation, I’m like, Oh, actually, I should have done this. Of course, at that point in time when you give that counsel or that recommendation was based on maybe there was a timeline pressure, based on that amount of information available at that point in time. I think, I do want to bring up the point that leaders should reflect. Maybe we are a society that’s rushing here, rushing there. If we don’t reflect sufficiently actually. And I think, when we do, we could actually realize that, oh, I could’ve quite done this way, or, maybe that epiphany will come actually.
Chuen Chuen: The questions that you ask, these are coaching questions. It’s starting from if your team needs you to achieve something, you already asked them, what would you like me to achieve on your behalf? That speaks accountability on them. Just a monkey on the bag instead of transferring all the problems and the responsibilities to you and the playback. What would you have done instead in the future? What have you learned from this experience? So these are Coaching questions. For some of us, self reflection is part of our DNA. For other people, it might be a routine, right? Something that they need to structure into their routine to make it happen. You’re right, the reflection, it deepens the self awareness. And that goes back to your first point about Leaders people love. They are all on their own journeys. Yeah, exactly. Continuously deepening the mastery and understanding about themselves. That’s why they are able to model the way.
Yeah, exactly.
Like we cannot give what we do not have.
Exactly. Yeah. Okay. The next question I want to ask is around your work in employee engagement. We know that these are disruptive times with the rise of AI, it seems to have changed many different dynamics, right? Plus five generations in the workplace, aging population, shrinking talent pool, mental health. Mental health I think is a big issue. So what do you feel leaders need to do?
Eleanor: COVID has really changed a lot of things actually, right?
For example, from the point of employee engagement, I used to work in shipping, right? How do you engage? Seafarers who are on your vessels in an ocean somewhere where they’re really remote, and we had situations of seafarers who couldn’t go home because parts were in lockdown, countries were in lockdown.
How do you engage them? I think the basic thing is having that understanding. And really know that you value them and that they matter. I think, a lot of people confuse employee engagement, we need this activity, we need this and all that, but I think fundamentally it’s really recognizing your employees for who they are, what are the values they hold dear as well, and how do you align the organizational values to your personal values.
I think, I’ve done CSR related work as well in, over the course of my work. I find that employees, when they find that, there’s actually meaning in what the company does, whether it’s CSR work or day to day work, the level of engagement actually goes up.
And I think, alongside with that is the sense of pride. Take for instance in May this year. In my own organization, we clocked 3, 500 hours of charity service, right? And I was looking at the staff survey results after that. It’s not run particularly because of this activity, but really about the state of the workplace.
And we have very high levels of engagement. And I think the verbatim feedback was that, Oh, I feel so proud working for the organization because you care for the communities that we live in. So I think, employee engagement can be very powerful as well. And it has to be genuine. I think the moment people know the meaning behind why they do what they do that actually drives engagement. It doesn’t matter whether you’re 20 something or 50 something. Sometimes I think we get into this classes, I would say. Because people will say, Oh, younger people, they’ll just leave at the drop of a hat, but in a couple of the organizations that I’ve worked with previously, we had 20 something who stayed on like for five, six, seven years. To me, that’s long, actually. And it’s longer than some older in age employees as well. I wouldn’t be so quick to go into a pigeonhole.
But I think technology has a strong role to play in employee engagement because there are tools and all that as well. But I think fundamentally, we mustn’t let that replace the human touch.
Chuen Chuen: Great points that you have raised. What you’re telling me is also aligned with the findings of the global survey that I’m running in conjunction with the book. When I asked employees, what makes them happier, right? What are the top manager behaviors that will make them happy? So recognizing employees for who they are.
Eleanor: Yeah, exactly.
Chuen Chuen: Help them find meaning. And that sense of pride that comes along when you have conveyed the meaning effectively. Yeah. So anything we do, we must remember what is the intention. It is not the activities, clocking, the X number of hours. It is the meaning that we create in the experience that truly brings people together.
Eleanor: Yeah, exactly.
Chuen Chuen: Good. So what is one lesson you believe leaders today must learn sooner better than later?
Eleanor: Change will always be hard. There’s hardly any organization that has not undergone some form of change, actually.
I think, from an internal comms point of view there will always be like toolkits, talking points, scripts. When you deliver them, always remember you’re talking to people. It’s not just a name. It’s not just a person in a department. But, there’s a person with family. A person with friends. A person with kids. So I think it’s having that human touch which goes back to what we talked before as well. Because at the end of it, that high level of empathy, it makes a lot of difference especially in times that are very uncertain. In times that are changing so fast. I’m not even sure if VUCA is really a term that’s still applicable because I think it’s VUCA plus. Which is why when we have strong leaders at the helm, it helps to bring meaning, it helps to bring stability, it brings comfort, it brings confidence. So that’s one thing that leaders need to know.
Chuen Chuen: Yeah, bring meaning, comfort, stability, and confidence in times of extreme changes.
Eleanor: Yeah, exactly. VUCA plus.
Yes, VUCA plus. You’re right. This thing about empathy, how can you convey empathy in internal comms?
I think the language needs to be human. I’ve always told people, please write in the active voice, not the passive voice. That’s one way of showing empathy, right? And also, it’s also about, using words that normal humans use. Is this a term that people actually understand? I think cultivating empathy and interest in the other person is really like talking at their level as well. It’s having that genuine desire to connect. I think that is fundamental.
Chuen Chuen: This is something that a lot of the people at Workaway, they also struggle with. It’s not that they are bad. They are not. They will maybe get a 360 feedback that says, Oh, you are very task oriented. I don’t feel recognized. So in that survey, other than recognize me, there’s also care about me as a person. Empower me to do work my way. And it comes up a lot in our communication. It’s the choice of language, like earlier, if we were to ask questions to challenge their thinking, not the person, it’s the choice of neutral tone, neutral language. And here, in the exact writing, okay, be it email, official circulars. Just a simple change from passive to active voice will increase the perceived level of empathy.
Eleanor: I’ve also worked with some of my leaders. Whenever there is a session where they have to interact with colleagues, we actually run through the talking points and then, the leader will say, Okay, Eleanor, I’m going to say this in this way, okay? What do you think? So we actually go back and forth to see whether it works or not. Sometimes I do my writing, right? I actually do read it out myself. And I also asked someone else to read it because the fact of the matter is, all of us we have our blind spots. And it takes one, two other people say, Oh, actually this came across as this. And I think this is particularly important if you are working in a organization that has a lot of cultures, right? I think, it’s just this constant learning that we have to do.
Chuen Chuen: So the safe environment is very important because you are leveraging others perception to inform if your piece of communication, even if it’s a short three or four sentence.
Okay, to summarize four powerful strategies that will immediately help leaders appear more empathetic. Number one. Write or speak in an active voice, number two, use layperson language, speak like everybody else. And if you can, read it out. Get someone to read it back to you. And discuss the possible ways it could be misinterpreted. How might you want to deliver it in a better way. Because facial expression, all these makes a difference.
Eleanor: Yeah exactly.
Chuen Chuen: Nice. What’s a simple action a leader can do every day to make a difference to organizations in the long run?
I’ll share an example with you. So when I was working in the British Council the country director who’s my boss every day he’ll walk the floors. This is in Singapore at Napier Road. He’ll walk the floors in the morning when he comes in, and after lunch. So he’ll talk to students. He’ll talk to parents. He’ll talk to staff. And he does this before he reads his email, before he gets to anything else. I think, that’s a fantastic way of management by walking, right?
It really shows that genuine interest. And you get real time feedback, right? And you can actually see people’s body language and that sort of stuff. A lot of people remember him for that, actually.
Was this boss, introvert or extrovert?
Eleanor: That’s an interesting question. I think he’s actually an introvert, but he switched on his extrovert personality.
Maybe not so much extroverted, but he knew that he should do it. And he had the genuine care. So that really struck me a lot, actually. And I think it was also at the British Council that I became a manager for the first time in my life. You try to learn from both the good and the bad, I would say, that you don’t want to do the things that bad managers or bad leaders do, right? And then you try to copy what good managers or good leaders do, actually.
Chuen Chuen: That’s where modeling shows the way.
Eleanor: Yeah. Modeling the way. Yeah.
Chuen Chuen: It’s so important. I was joking with one of my friends thinking about a book title and I said, Oh, why don’t you write a book about the ivory tower? And we laughed because so many leaders say, I’m too busy. I’m introvert. I don’t want to walk the ground. But I say if you don’t want the ground, if you’re not visible, people will forget. They don’t feel that you’re involved. They don’t know that you care. But I do care. I’m writing like essay long appraisal feedback for them. I said that those things don’t quite touch the heart.
Eleanor: I think leadership is deliberate and intentional, right? So I think, it’s a long story that introverts can be leaders.
Chuen Chuen: Similarly, when we refrain from segmentizing our workforce and putting certain labels or be confined by stereotypes. Leaders, they themselves must also elevate above. The labels that they put on themselves like introvert versus introvert. Because I get so many introverted leaders who tell me that I can’t lead, I can’t influence, I can’t communicate assertively. And then the first thing I’ll tell them is I’m an introvert too. And then they’ll say, it doesn’t look like it? I say, yes, exactly. Because we have this flexibility in us that we can find the pathway that works for us because we are unique. We can make it happen as long as we act with intention. We are very clear what is the outcome we want, then we just do it in a way that works for us.
So it’s great having this conversation with you. I got so many nuggets from you. The VUCA plus is definitely going to be credited.
We need a t shirt. We need a t shirt.
Yes.
Merchandise.
Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Eleanor.
Eleanor: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
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