Leaders often fear vulnerability as it may be perceived as leniency by their teams. However, embracing vulnerability is crucial for fostering genuine connections within an organization. The key lies in being selectively vulnerable.
In episode 6 of the Leaders People Love series, hear Frank Koo, Head of Asia for LinkedIn Talent and Learning Solutions as he offers practical advice on how to connect with their teams, manage their energy, and the importance of selectively being vulnerable to effectively inspire and lead with impact.
Connect with Frank Koo at https://www.linkedin.com/in/koofrank/
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Welcome to Agile Leaders Conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human center professionals and leaders to share what it means to lead in today’s workplaces. From their personal stories, find out the greatest learning that guides them through disruption. And forge a better way forward. Their insights will maximize your leadership potential, and unlock possibilities for better future. My name is Yeo Chuen Chuen. I’m the author of Leaders People Love, a guide for agile leaders to creating great workplaces and happy employees. I’m delighted to have you listen in today.
My guest today is Frank Koo, head of Asia for talent and learning solutions at LinkedIn. Frank leads a team of professionals who help organizations and executives achieve positive transformation. With over 30 years of experience in the internet technology and education sector, he has developed competencies in organizational development, human capital management, business development, sales and marketing and many more.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Welcome to the show, Frank. To start off, tell us about yourself, what you do, and why you do what you do.
Frank Koo: Thank you for inviting me. Chuen Chuen. I’m currently the head of Asia for LinkedIn Talent and Learning Solutions. I joined LinkedIn about seven and a half years ago. And what inspired me about LinkedIn when I first joined is really it’s vision of creating economic opportunity for the global workforce. And this is what I’ve always been wanting to do, which is to help people to progress in their life and have access to better opportunities. And so far it has been a wonderful journey for me over the last seven and a half years.
I learned a lot about compassionate management, which LinkedIn is known for. I learned a lot about how we can leverage culture and values to really get people bring their whole self to work. And I learned also a lot about how to enable and empower people of different generations from, boomers to Gen X, to the Gen Z, to be able to work together. So that we can create something that is great for both the business, as well as the community.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: That’s why you are the perfect guest for this podcast. So this podcast is developed in conjunction with my book Leaders People Love. And so many things that you have said now, creating economic opportunities by developing people.
How do we take a more human centered approach to management and encourage people to bring a whole self to work. And the most crucial of all, empowering people from different generations to come together so that they can work together in happier workplaces, and be happier, more fulfilled human beings at the end of life.
Frank Koo: Absolutely. In fact, I’m still learning the tricks of the game. But for both of us, it’s really learning that keeps us going. Become better people.
I have always been following you. Reading all your posts. You have demonstrated yourself very strongly as an ally for veteran leaders, up and coming leaders. So while we talk about this topic of leadership, specifically leaders people will love to work with and work for, who’s the first person that comes to your mind?
Wow. That would be my personal hero. And it’s none other than Mr. Kuan Yew. And he has been my hero, and he will continue to be my hero. Somebody I really looked up to. First of all, it is because the environments, the political, as well as societal environment that he has created for Singapore, has given me the opportunities to become who I am today. And also given opportunities for Singapore to move from an impoverished third world nation to become a thriving metropolis.
And I think if I look at Kuan Yew’s leadership, there are three things that really stands out for me. The first one is clarity of vision. When Singapore first achieve independence, we have nothing to brag about. It was really an impoverished country with no natural resources and potentially facing a lot of risk from different angles.
And he had the vision to make Singapore a first world country since more than 50 years ago. So to me, the clarity of vision is enormous, and that is the first driver for Singapore to be able to achieve what we have today.
The second one is what I call the courage of conviction, not only did he establish the vision, but has shown all of us that, we can do it. He himself went through thick and thin to be able to make a lot of difference in Singapore. One good example is the cleaning up of the Singapore River.
I think both of us have seen the olden days of Singapore River where there are rubbish floating on the water itself. And he took more than 30 years to clean it up. And it won’t happen without the courage of conviction.
The third leadership quality I saw in Mr Kuan Yew is really his ability to communicate, and rarely all people in Singapore to achieve a common goal, which is good for the whole society. I think these are the three qualities that I’ve seen, which is really relevant and I’m trying to live such qualities every day as well.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Wow. So three main lessons from Mr. Kuan Yew. Clarity of vision. Not only is he clear, he also dreams big. And I can imagine back in the days, in the 1950s, sixties, they would look at Singapore and say, what? This is like a swampland. How can this become a thriving metropolis? You must be crazy, right? But you’ll not be dissuaded.
So that’s one, the courage of conviction. 20 years to clean out a Singapore River. For goodness is like such a long journey to get there. And ability to communicate. When his short reels appear on TikTok, Instagram, I will still watch and how masterful he is in using simple words to inspire people and help everyone be so clear. And it’s as if the dream is right in front of them.
So I think there will be very big shoes to fill an aspirational figure for many of us as well. There’s this artwork. It’s called your Limp. They call it limp. It was very funny. So it shows Mr. Liu from young days to his old age. So there are many versions and the title is Limpy. Because he’s indeed father of Singapore.
Frank Koo: Indeed, and a hero to many as well. Yes, definitely myself.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: So while we talk about Mr. Lee, this year, 2023 is a hundred years since he was born. There’s also quite a bit of debate about leadership styles. He’s quite known for being very direct. He does’t mince his words, and it worked. So what do you see as the difference in good leadership now and then, how do the styles change over time?
Frank Koo: That’s a fantastic question. In fact, good leadership practices have changed, or need to change tremendously. Taking an example of Mr. Lee Kuan Yew, we also realized that over time he has mellowed down on his approach. And in fact at the right time, he actually stepped aside, so that the younger generation of leaders can take on the role of leading Singapore.
But in the corporate world, I’ve seen a big shift that’s needed in order to ensure that the younger generations of the workforce, especially when the world has moved from the industrial age right now to the knowledge age. We need new leaders, new types of thinking. The new types of thinking is required to enable and empower all the generations of the workforce to do well in the knowledge economy.
So I had this joke with my colleagues that, when I first became a leader or people manager, and that was many years ago when I said, guys, let’s do this. And the first response is when. And so fast forward to now, when I said to team members, let’s do this. And the first response is, why? So times have changed.
And as people managers, as leaders, we need to help people understand the why of doing something so that it can be sustainable, that they can do it with all their heart. When we help people align what they do with why they’re doing it, then we can definitely get a better outcome and improve productivity overall.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Two differences I hear in the little anecdote. In the past, we will say, guys, let’s do this. No cannot. We cannot use guys. It has to be all encompassing. It has to be inclusive. So in the past, people will just do it without a doubt, without question, but now people want to understand why.
Frank, you understand the multi-generational workforce the best. How can leaders unpack the why to bring about the change?
I believe that everyone would have their why of doing the same thing, right? So perhaps for the sake of just generalization, maybe people who are in the Gen X, for them the broader purpose of work. Their why, maybe to serve their retirement needs or to ensure that’s their time to take care of both the children as well as the parents. And then on the other hand, Gen Zs, to them the why may be simply, In three, five years time of owning a car, or maybe with bigger aspirations if they can help protect the environment, enable a more inclusive society, then this is their why.
But I personally believe that no matter what, you can always align the corporate objectives with a why of individuals. And it’s really the responsibility of a leader to really help explore and help people understand the why. So that when they try to fulfill the corporate objective, they’re doing it in a sustainable way.
Frank Koo: So I always encourage my managers to take a pause, when they receive their KPIs. Instead of just going head long into fulfilling the business objective they’re given, I would ask them to take a pause and say, just think about why do you want to achieve it? What does it mean for you? And once they’ve done that, I realize that people are more focused in achieving it because not only are they fulfilling the company’s goal, they’re also fulfilling their personal goal. And then when they take action on a daily basis, it becomes more meaningful for them. And action and results can be more sustainable.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: That’s how we can unpack the why, such that work becomes meaningful to everyone in on your team. No matter which generation they come from. And from the way you were able to articulate the various life stages, what is important to these people at different stage, it also means that you understand each of the generations very well.
I really like that part where you say take a pause when they receive their KPIs. Instead of launching into the doing mode. We are human beings. We are not human doings. By effectively asking them to pause what you have done. If you ask them to be being instead of the doing. It makes them more resilient. Do you see them becoming more resilient when things get rough?
Frank Koo: Indeed, yes. I think, let’s say everyone can connect, their work on a daily basis with their life aspirations or purpose. Then they can become more resilient because they can then overcome the ups and downs of daily situations just because they’re focusing on the long-term goal. And also from what you shared also, the question is then how do we enable people to really understand the why?
Once the connection is there, then potentially, productivity of individuals will increase. At the same time, happiness at work will increase. And if that happens, then work-life balance will become easy to achieve.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: I don’t know whether you have done the leaders people love global survey.
Frank Koo: Yes, I’ve done. Whenever you ask me to do something, I will do it.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: I know. I can always count on you. So is that meaningful work is a result of effective and relevant managerial practices which will then increase happiness in employees and for the businesses being more productive? Now, what about employees that haven’t figured out their why?
Frank Koo: In my view, and correct me if I’m wrong. I think if you use the right approach. The right question techniques and being a good listener. People will always be able to find what their aspirations are for them to leverage what they want to learn, to what they will be doing every day, and we can help them find a connection, right? So seemingly it looks a bit different from what they’re doing at work. But if you ask in a very compassionate way, they may find certain connection. Once they do, they’ll find that engaging in the existing work can be more meaningful than what they used to think.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Can you share more about asking in a compassionate way? How does that sound like?
Frank Koo: First, it is actually very much of a coaching 1 0 1. I know that the leaders, we tend to give solutions. But as a good coach, even if we think we have the solutions, we try to hold it back because the solutions may not work for the individual we are working with. And also we hold judgments. Instead of criticizing the person and say, hey! You should have a 10 year plan, not six month plan. Let’s try to hold judgment and then perhaps, along the way they can explore the talent and the passion, and they can do something much better.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: So it’s about the person, it’s not about the work.
Frank Koo: Absolutely. I believe it’s never about the work. The work is the outcome. And the people are the ones that will contribute to the outcome. So it’s really about the people.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: So before judgment, without expectation that your way is the only way. This is one of the chapters in the book, your way is not the only way.
Frank Koo: I love it. I’m really looking forward to seeing your book because after responding to your survey, I find that there are so many gems I can use.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Very happy to hear that. Good. So in your area of responsibility and after years of leadership, what have you learned about leadership that you try to pass on?
Frank Koo: One thing I really learned is, in your first book about being an agile leader. Especially in a current environment where there are strong headwinds in our business, and the ability for every leader to be able to have a strong sense of the environment and be able to respond accordingly. It’s very critical towards the success of the organization.
And a good sense of the environment includes how the economy is doing, how is it impacting the business and also how the people are doing. And at the same time, what sort of strategy, what sort of engagement what sort of conversation we can have to ensure that we rally to get our people together to deliver the best job they can ever do in the existing environments.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: So help them to have, would you call it systems? This, is this systems thinking or big picture thinking strategy?
Frank Koo: I think a couple of things in this connection. First of all a sense of common mission, right? When times are tough, you need people to rally together.
And secondly as I’ve shared before, if they know how or what they’re doing right now is connected to what they love to do in the longer term, the life purpose. Then they’ll be able to put in the best efforts.
And thirdly like what you say is the certain systems that would be useful to be able to get the whole team together. Now, at the same time, it’s also important for leaders to be able to be authentic and a bit more vulnerable because in this fast changing environment, we know that we don’t have all the answers.
It is good to let people know that for some of you, you may not agree on this objective that we’ve set ourselves on, but as a team we wanna make sure that everybody’s successful. So let’s go ahead nevertheless, and we learn along the way. And to me, this is what agile leadership is in this very complex environment.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: So understanding the entire ecosystem. These days, I don’t just use systems thinking because it can sound very transactional or it sounds fixed. So if you think of it as a living system, what one person does will impact another part of the ecosystem. Being aware that we don’t have the answers, but we will communicate. Bring people on board.
Okay, this part about people, not leaders expected to lead, but we don’t have all the answers. How did you grow to become comfortable with it? Was that something natural or at the beginning or something that you developed along the way?
Frank Koo: It’s definitely something I developed along the way because when I first became a people leader, a great leader is someone who has all the answers for the next 10 years and have very specific plans on how to get there.
Now is very difficult to have all the answers for the next one year.
We are very optimistic. One year I thought three months.
Oh, yeah! Or three months. So it is good to be real, right? Because nobody believes that you have a very clear picture of what’s gonna happen in one or two years time. So therefore it’s good to be real and let people know what the real situation is. So that people can actually look upon you as being able to lead them with flexibility, with agility, and they’re more willing to follow you.
At the same time, it’s not just about following you, it’s about doing things together with a certain direction so that we can progress towards a true north of what we want to achieve.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Okay. I think this is where maybe a lot of listeners will want to hear more. How do I even be more comfortable? Because the leadership archetypes that we have seen, a leader is great if he has the answer, the answer that is right for 10 years or more, and the approach you get there is fixed. Cannot change. To share this archetype and this measurement of success is very difficult. That’s why a lot of leaders I work with, they’re so stressed out because they are holding themselves to impossible standards. So mindset shift wise, how do you reframe for yourself such that you can deal with the chances of getting the approach wrong which is very high, and look at working towards ideal state as a sign of being flexible and adaptable instead of incompetence. What’s the mindset shift?
Frank Koo: Yeah, I would say two key ones. One is leveraging on what Marshall Goldsmith talked about. What gets you here won’t get you there. I know a lot of leaders who have been successful in the past adopting a certain style of leadership will find it very difficult to change. Because the idea is that if I’ve been successful in the past 30 years with this style of leadership, it should be successful in the next five years, right?
So it’s very difficult for them to change. So the idea of what gets you here won’t get you further, I think that’s something for leaders to think about. And if you can do that, then you slowly develop this growth mindset that you’re open to rethinking about your previous hypothesis then, and learn new things. Take inputs from the environment, and through your personal learning, you’re able to then devise maybe a better strategy moving forward.
The next part is instead of being a know-it-all, just change and be a learn it all. A lot of people think that I am a know-it-all. Or some people say, I eat salt more than I eat rice. In the Chinese. saying, ……………….. So the idea is that move beyond a know it all to learn it all so that you can be more flexible. And then one key area to consider about being a learn it all is, you must remove your pride and ego, right? A lot of people, they continue in the same mode of operation because of pride. They’re not willing to change. They’re not willing to learn from people who are more junior than them. People four or five levels below them, or people 30 or 40 years below them. So if you can remove pride. I think that is a good start towards a more progressive kind of leadership.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: So a lot of our sayings, I think idioms, all this might need to change.
Frank Koo: Definitely. The eating salt part.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah, for sure. I really love the transition between knowing it all to learn it all. Okay, I’m a Singaporean, so I feel Senglish is an essential part of who I am. So when I explain to class, I always like to say it’s the “chey” mindset and the “wow” mindset. Okay, so let me explain. If you are, no it all, you are no longer open to learning. When somebody gives you a new idea or a new way of doing things, you will go “chey.” So in Singapore, when we say “chey,” it means what’s that to celebrate about? So it’s a “chey” mindset. Instead, we need to retain the joy of learning, the joy of discovery so that if somebody shows us a new way of doing things, we go wow! I didn’t know that. And that’s how we can be very flexible, adaptable, and agile.
Frank Koo: Absolutely !You’re spot on Chuen Chuen. Really it’s about the sense of curiosity, also humility as well that you can always learn from people, all sorts of people. So that’s where the “wow” can happen.
If you stay open, you are more sensitive to the environment and even if not somebody, some occurrences in environment can also help you to learn something as well.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: So our ears must always stay open. That’s why we have two ears and one mouth.
Are you comfortable to share what was your hardest or toughest leadership lesson you have learned? What’s the most important leadership lesson you’ve ever, you’ve learned?
Frank Koo: I think one important leadership lesson I’ve learned is actually during a time where, the company I was working for wasn’t doing very well.
I remember that I was required to deliver good business results for certain division. And the environment at that time was against us. It was a a business meeting where I was feeling a bit down because the results wasn’t coming through. At that time, there’s something that my then boss said that got me into so much of a comfort and gave me so much admiration for him. He told me after I shared the bad results that you know Frank, the only thing that you can do and all of us can do in life is to do our best.
When that statement was articulated, I felt so much of a belief. Comfort no doubt but belief that I want to do better for the division as well as for my manager.
So I’ve always used this subsequently, and it’s very practical during these strong macro environments where sometimes despite trying your best the results may not come in. And when that happens, as the leader, what do you do with the people in your team? Do you tear them down or do you try to build them up such that they can do better in future? At the time, that was a turning point and that was so revolutionary for me.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Did the business achieve results in the end?
Frank Koo: Oh yeah, it turned around after one and a half years. So that was a positive change.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah , so this is a deep question, right? For all leaders, everyone listening in, when things are going south, when things don’t look good, do you tear people down or do you build them up? At the end of the day, what’s more important, because it is human lives that managers and leaders touch every single day, the weight of our words multiply accordingly.
Okay. I’m wondering if you are willing to comment on this, leadership is very lonely journey. And especially the more senior we get. And your every single move, whatever you say or you don’t say is being scrutinized, hyper analyzed. How do you deal with that pressure?
Frank Koo: Yeah. I used to think that leadership is a very lonely journey. But actually I changed my mind right now. Obviously as a leader, there are certain things that you definitely need to keep confidential. There’s certain information that you are aware that has big impacts to the organization that you cannot reveal to many people.
And that’s I think, the reason why leaders can be lonely. But on the other hand, there are other areas which you can actually be very authentic and share right? Sometimes another area why leaders think that they will be lonely is because they cannot be their true self, right?
But actually, despite some of the things that we have to keep very confidential, we can still be our true self.
For instance at LinkedIn, we have quite a number of people who are in Gen Y, and they really appreciate someone who actually can be a true self and really relates to them, listen to them, and really be part and parcel of even their celebration.
Sometimes, I will join the teams to celebrate, to have fun together. And sometimes I invite some of my colleagues to my place. Of course, there’s certain boundaries, right? That first of all, I don’t take too much alcohol, right? But beyond that, you can be your authentic self. People expect you to let your hair down, to be able to have fun together, to be able to share some of the interesting things in your life.
And when this happens, people feel like you are a leader that knows them better. At the same time, you don’t feel leadership is a lonely journey because you do have some people that actually you can work, you enjoy the company with.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: So being authentic doesn’t mean you are the same all the time. That is the most important lesson. And your definition of being authentic is being flexible. It doesn’t mean it’s all in or all out. It’s like you don’t have to go all in and hang all your guts out.
Frank Koo: Yep. That’s right. Some people call this selective vulnerability, right?
As a team members they love to see people who are real. And to be real, sometimes you need to be a bit vulnerable. But as a leader, you can be vulnerable, but you can be selectively vulnerable. And it doesn’t have to be fake. It can be very real. What are the boundaries. There’s certain things that you have to really keep very confidential. There’s certain areas that you can share, and once you know the difference, you can be vulnerable to a point whereby you can become very real.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. That’s good. I’m teaching this leading with vulnerability in leadership storytelling. So this was the exact topic. And we discussed how can you share, for example, stories of failure. Without eroding your credibility. In fact, you want to share stories of failure to enhance your credibility, competence, and character, and you have to know then what are the right stories to pick.
Okay. So next thing I wanna ask you is about Gen Zs. We know Gen Zs are changing the workforce. Very soon, gen Zs, millennials will be the majority of the workforce. What’s your advice for leaders leading multi-generational teams?
Frank Koo: For the Gen Zs, they want people who can listen to them because they want to have a voice. Many of them have a great purpose. For instance, for environment, for inclusion, for diversity. And they want to represent the voice in the workplace or have the voice represented in the workplace. So to engage Gen Z it is important to take some time to listen to them.
And of course, in a multi-generational workforce environment, it’s important for people of different ages to know one another. And there are several ways to do this. For instance, in LinkedIn we have an employee resource group called wisdom. And it’s meant to address the needs of people in our company above 40 years old. And I realize that members who have signed up for the Wisdom Employee Resource Group come from all ages. Above 40 as well as below 40. And initially when I saw this, I was quite surprised. I realize that actually people have a need.
The younger generation have a need to understand the older generation. The older generation, of course, has a need to understand what the younger generation. Therefore, back to the question of don’t be a know it all, but a learn it all. Have the humility to learn from people across the generations.
And I think companies can actually go a long way in organizing such interaction so that people know from one another.
So, it’s a whole company’s systemic change to create such platforms so that there’s cross pollination of the ideas wanting to learn from one another.
Absolutely, and it’s also important for especially the senior leaders, who in general from the gen X or the older version of Gen Y to also have an open mind to be able to not just listen, but also learn from the remaining of the Gen Y and the Gen Zs right now.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: I’m glad you illustrated this. The one thing we need to help leaders, decision makers understand that the solution to multi-generational understanding and inclusion is not a program. It’s not just scheduling time for people of different age groups to come together. It starts with the mindset.
Frank Koo: Absolutely.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Because there are also senior leaders who listen to everything from the ground, and then it turns into a lecture to tell people, you shouldn’t think this way, and it won’t be effective. Then in that sense, people are going to be disengaged even faster.
So two key areas that Frank already shared. What does it mean to be aware and do something about your unconscious bias. What does it mean to be an ally? What does it mean to be an advocate? To represent people’s voices in the workplace? It’s a whole different way of leading.
So earlier when we spoke about Marshall Goldsmith, his model of coaching is stakeholder centered coaching. How can we truly be a leader guided by our people, and lead them the way they want to be led. Real change begins with a mindset.
Okay, so what’s one simple action a leader can do every day to make a difference in the long run?
It’s really to manage their own energy level. If they’re able to manage their own energy, they can then help the team level up on the energy level. I’m not sure whether you have seen leaders coming to work feeling depressed, being dejected. Now it’s not a good day for not just the leader, but also for the rest of team members, right?
So to me, it’s important for us as leaders to manage our own energy level. Once we’re able to do that, we can actually help the team manage the energy level so that the whole team can become very enthusiastic in what they’re doing. And come together to achieve a greater goal.
I’m curious because before we started recording for the session, I was talking about energy as well, and the high performance routine. What are some steps in your high performance routine to manage your energy?
Frank Koo: Okay, for me I do recognize that there are four levers of energy that I can control to build my overall energy level up.
So the first one is physical energy. And it’s gotta do with exercise, nutrition, and enough sleep. The second one is mental energy and it’s got to do with the learning, as well as acquisition of knowledge and skills. The third one is emotional energy which has gotta do with the relationship, the social elements, the community elements. Then the fourth one is spiritual energy. And for people with faith, it’s really about believing in the existence of God. It can also be having a broader purpose, a life purpose, and also a passion doing certain things. So with this understanding, I always try to level up on different energy.
So for instance, I feel like my emotional energy is down, I feeling a bit anxious, what I’ll do is sometimes I just go to the gym to workout and the physical energy actually can help elevate the other parts of energy as well. And sometimes I’ll spend some quiet time doing some learning that can help uplevel my energy. And of course, having a higher purpose, whether it’s believing in God or believing in something that can contribute to society in a bigger way can also help elevate other parts of the energy.
And this will then support us in being able to do our work or fulfill responsibly in a much better way and have positive impact to the broader environment.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yes. And that’s perfectly how to be a leader in an ecosystem. Okay, good. Thank you so much, Frank, for your time and the gems that you have shared. It’s been a pleasure to have you on this show.
Frank Koo: Thank you Chuen Chuen for having me here. It is always a pleasure speaking with you and hope we can catch up a lot more often.
Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. I hope so too.
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