This is a new series on Leaders People Love, where we continue to speak to diverse leaders from across industries and experience levels.
In the legal industry, leaders often lack empathy due to their demanding nature and hierarchical structures. This can lead to burnout, low morale, and hindered collaboration. Recognizing the importance of empathy is crucial for a healthy work environment. Open communication and support from leaders can create a compassionate and productive legal workplace.
In episode 5 of the Leaders People Love series, Lara Quie, Executive Coach for Lawyers emphasizes the importance of a combination of competence and warmth in leadership, highlighting how true leadership comes from being true to oneself and inspiring others to follow.
Connect with Lara Quie at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie/
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Lara: In the legal profession, excellence in terms of their legal knowledge and skill. It probably is the number one thing. For example, for barristers, somebody who is a truly fantastic advocate. Even if they’re a really horrible person, if they’re amazing on their feet and they win every case, I think there’s a certain level of respect you have for that person, for their pure skill.
But then, when it comes to leadership, would you want to be led by that person? Not necessarily. I would certainly worry myself about, could I live up to their standards? Gosh, I’m really not as brilliant as them. How can I even please them with what I can offer?
Chuen Chuen: Welcome to agile leaders conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human centered professionals and leaders to share what it means to lead in today’s workplaces. From their personal stories, find out the greatest learning that guides them through disruption. And forge a better way forward. Their insights will maximize your leadership potential and unlock possibilities for better future.
My name is Yeo Chuen Chuen. I’m the author of Leaders People Love, a guide for agile leaders to creating great workplaces and happy employees. I’m delighted to have you listen in today. My guest today is Laura Quie, head of business development at Twenty Essex, a leading international commercial set with over a hundred barristers and arbitrators.
Laura is also passionate about podcasting and the host of the Legal Genie podcast.
Welcome to the show, Laura. I’m so happy to have you today.
Lara: Thank you so much, Chuen Chuen. Really delighted to be here.
Chuen Chuen: So tell us about yourself, your name, what you do, and why you do what you do.
Lara: My name is Lara Quie. I am all sorts of things actually. My day job, I am the head of business development for a barristers chambers. So advocates who argue in court. They are called Twenty Essex, and I do that Monday to Thursday. And on Fridays I run my own coaching business, coaching and consulting, helping lawyers find their true purpose, et cetera. And also doing LinkedIn training because I’m such a big believer in having a very powerful personal brand.
Chuen Chuen: Fantastic. And it is a perfect combination of bringing all your passion together into a portfolio career. Would you see yourself in that?
Lara: A hundred percent. I’m a big believer in portfolio careers. I’m also big believer in multiple income streams and especially smart passive income. So I also have a small fabric business and accessories business which is run through Etsy. And there’s nothing more exciting than waking up in the morning to see that I’ve made a sale overnight while I sleep. And then I have to package up my little gift and send it off in the post.
A portfolio career is something that is really in line with my energy, my enthusiasm for so many different things. They all run in parallel. They’re all very complementary. They satisfy my need for being creative, meeting lots of different people, and making things with my hands as well.
Chuen Chuen: How did you find this sweet spot to do everything?
Lara: I think as you grow older and you become more interested in different things, you realize that you can get involved in other things. And so the fabric business in particular, I was just basically a fabric addict, and I was buying more and more fabric. And one day my mother said to me, you’ve got all of this fabric. What are you doing with it? And so to justify it, I said I’m making things with it and actually I’m reselling it. So that’s what spurred me on. And then I discovered Instagram. And I discovered amazing things that people were making, and I thought I could make those as well. And with the advent of Etsy, I noticed that there could be a marketplace that I could sell these things so I could create things ’cause that was the main thing that I enjoyed, the creativity and then making it with my hands, but I couldn’t keep it all for myself. And then the joy that people expressed when they bought my products, the feedback that I got, that was very fulfilling. And so with my coaching as well, seeing people move forward, having that input and effect on other people, that is very fulfilling. So those are the things that drive those other businesses.
Chuen Chuen: And you can see when you are talking about it that your face lights up. That energy using your ability to create, which I believe is a strength, and you can see in your fabric business, that power of creation in your accessory business, in your coaching business, LinkedIn consulting business, and also working with Twenty Essex.
Lara: Yes, so it’s a barrister’s chambers. So in Singapore, the legal profession is a fused profession, whereas in the UK it is a split profession. And by that we mean that in the UK the profession is split into solicitors and barristers. So barristers are the advocates who go into court.
Chuen Chuen: Many years ago I was an intern in my uncle’s law firm. I never knew the difference between barristers and solicitors. So the setup is different and it does sound like there’s a high amount of stakeholder management in your job.
Lara: Yes. That’s very important because lawyers need to be highly skeptical, right? They must see the evidence. They’re not going to trust you on your word, and therefore you have to be conscious that every time you are building a relationship, you have to show evidence. So it is a challenge to engage with stakeholders.
I am a former qualified solicitor. Having that legal background establishes a level of credibility, but also over time with maturity, experience in the area, you have to prove yourself, but you have to present the evidence to them at all times. So understanding the legal personality, the lawyer personality is very important and I think that helps me to engage with my stakeholders.
Chuen Chuen: Fantastic. What you’re saying is also aligned with one of the pillars of the Agile leadership framework that I wrote in Leaders People Love. It’s about understanding your audience, and you have to establish your credibility quickly and communicate in a way that works for them so that they will want to listen to you even more and they will take your professional opinion.
Lara: Yeah, a hundred percent.
Chuen Chuen: One thing I wanna ask. Where does leadership come in your area of work?
Lara: Within in a barrister’s chambers such as ours, we have many forms of leadership. So we have a chief executive officer who has to show the staff beneath her, leading the way for best practice.
Often a case will involve a team of barristers. So usually, a King’s council will be the leader, and then they’ll have some juniors beneath them in the team under, so those king’s council will need to show leadership. Guiding the case, giving feedback, demonstrating fantastic advocacy skills and written advocacy skills. I think a lot of the leadership involved in that context is around showing yourself to be professional, client management, personal skills, interpersonal skills, soft skills, and whether you’re a nice person. Because within the barrister’s profession, they’re self-employed, so you really need to be someone that everyone wants to work with. So you have to be an affable person.
Especially when it comes to the King’s Council and the juniors. Likewise, the juniors have to be good people to work with. Usually it’s the King’s Council who specifies, these are the juniors I’d like to work with. And so that’s based on past experience. If you are a good junior, reliable, giving quality work, fun to get along with, they’re going to pick you again. But if you are awful, they’re not gonna choose you next time. There is that level of interaction.
And certainly you get feedback from the juniors as well. Oh no, that King’s Council wants to work with me again. No. Tell him no. Tell her no. I’m not available. And that’s because they haven’t seen the leadership that they want. But certainly juniors are looking up to these king’s council, aspiring to be reaching the status of King’s Council as quite an important position, highly sought after, very hard to achieve. That is a form of leadership, I would say.
Chuen Chuen: It’s almost like the best example of how workplaces are configured these days. Many workplaces these days are configured in the matrix form. There’s dotted line reporting. He’s your boss, but he’s not really your boss because he doesn’t decide your performance bonus. And in this setup, when there is a council, it’s a group of people who are self-employed. For each of them, their interests is the most important, but how can you assemble a team that takes care of their self-interests and also takes care of the team’s interests?
There’s so many things about building trust here, about managing and shaping your personal brand. Like how do you show up on a day-to-day basis? Do you show competence, professionalism? Knowing your stuff. Do you show great character? Do you give people good vibes? Do people like to work with you? And it applies to both senior and juniors.
I suppose training in law school, managing your own brand, soft skills, how early exposure to this area come in?
Actually, that’s a very good point and one of the biggest complaints when it comes to law school. Because obviously they’re very focused on the hard skills, the knowledge.
When you go to law school or bar school as well, they do teach you about different areas of law. For barristers, obviously the advocacy skills, the written advocacy as well. And for law firm, private practice lawyers, they’re learning all the nitty gritty of property law and business law. So, the focus is very much on those because they are the foundations of what it takes to be a lawyer.
However, when people come out of law school and then they want to get training, for barristers it’s called pupillage, and they’ll go in for six months within a barrister’s chambers and start to learn the ropes there. For private practice solicitors in the UK, they will go for a two year training contract, it’s called a seat, and you’ll do four different areas, and litigation is usually one of the compulsory ones as well. Most of those larger law firms will also have a very comprehensive training program that includes many of the soft skills.
However, over time the level of that training kind of dwindles and does depend very much on the kind of firm that you are in. And so if you, for example, you are a Singaporean local lawyer in a local law firm, your firm will have limited resources and time and budget to offer this kind of training.
And I think that’s one of the limitations of being in a small firm. That’s when leadership really comes into play. Because many of these soft skills can be taught to you one-to-one through a mentor. If you have the right person above you, who is gonna show you the ropes, it’s very important. Those need to be really strong in the early days, but then you need all the business skills and all the interpersonal skills.
So building those relationships, and certainly business development is something that is really not taught at law school, and many law firms also do not teach it. However, when they make someone a partner in the firm, suddenly they’re expected to just go off and know this stuff. That’s why a lot of what I do is the business development coaching one-to-one who have not received that through their firm.
And this talks about the Peter’s plateau. There’s this phrase I made in my book, Peter’s principle, which means you will be promoted to the job grade where you don’t have the skills to perform the role. And if you ever get stuck, that’s because you have hit the Peter’s Plateau. If you don’t learn a skill, that is the terminal stage of career. The highest state of the career. And what you’re seeing is very competent lawyers who get promoted into the role and suddenly they realize that they don’t have the skills and they’ve missed out on all the years prior to that to build these soft skills.
Because soft skills are not the plug and play. It must be experienced. We must evaluate. Be immersed in it for us to draw the essence and to embrace that. And that’s where the leadership of all the people in the ecosystem, whether they provide training opportunities, have mentors who are able to guide you to evaluate your experience. That makes a big difference.
While we talk about this topic of leadership now, when you think about a leader people will love, who’s the first person that comes to your mind?
Lara: I would say that there are a few cult leaders at the moment that you hear about. People talk about Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, right? These are the kind of names. But I would say that the very original one is Richard Branson because his concept of leadership is very much about being true to yourself. And a lot of it, I feel, is his own personal self-confidence. He is not afraid to reveal his weaknesses and to really voice those areas where he’s not an expert.
He was the one who really was emphasizing bringing a team, people with the best skills that the people who are able to consolidate those teams, bring them all together. They are the ones who are the best. Because I think, he walks the talk. He really demonstrates what it is to truly live a leadership experience, to build a personal brand, a whole brand, a business brand as well and to lead by example. So really interesting, I would say for me, Richard Branson and his Virgin Brand.
Chuen Chuen: And it sounds very similar to how we assemble the King’s Council. The leader of the team will need to pick the best people to be on the right seat. Bring own zones of geniuses together.
Lara: Exactly. It’s very much that. I think you need to know people very well. You understand their strengths and weaknesses, their areas of specialty, and then put that all together into the dream team. So rather like a football club and a football team, you have your coach. They understand exactly where to put the players. Who are we going to use against this particular team? Each team is so unique. You need to make sure that for this particular game we are going on the attack. So, it’s definitely about the team.
Chuen Chuen: With Richard Branson, I remember there was one time he said he’s not comfortable with public speaking. I was pretty shocked. And I attended one of his live sessions once. To be honest. Okay. He’s not the most charismatic, but is he today one of the most effective? I think so. I think there’s plenty to celebrate on a personal energetic level, at least the vibe, right? Can I imagine working for him? You definitely can.
When I think about him, he doesn’t come across as threatening, or that he will squeeze the life out of you, but more inspiring and drawing out the best potential from you and that you have a team of A players. But it’s not competitive. You’re helping each other.
Lara: The fact that he’s very comfortable in his own skin, and he doesn’t have things to prove. I think that’s very important for leaders.
When we say authentic, we really mean that they’re comfortable in their own shoes. And that they’re not out to prove anything. But for me, a true leader is someone who inspires me to follow them, not because they’ve got a title. I feel leadership comes from the people who follow. It’s us that make them a leader as opposed to someone making themselves a leader. I think that as a person, you can be aware of what a good leader looks like, but that’s your interpretation, and you can try and aspire to do those things. But just because you do that doesn’t mean other people will follow you and see you as that leader.
Chuen Chuen: Are you a leader because someone made you one, or are you a leader because of who you are? That is a great question. And as you talk about leaders being authentic, it’s about being comfortable in his own skin, his own shoes. I’m wondering in your area, the people that you work with, they are paid to be skeptical. They’re trained to be skeptical. So when working with people like that, what are some ways someone can establish themselves as a leader because of who they are?
Lara: I would say in the legal profession, excellence in terms of their legal knowledge and skill. It probably is the number one thing. What we admire most in other lawyers is their fantastic legal skills. So for example, for barristers, somebody who is a truly fantastic advocate. Even if they’re a really horrible person, if they’re amazing on their feet and they win every case, I think there’s a certain level of respect you have for that person, for their pure skill.
But then, when it comes to leadership, would you want to be led by that person? Not necessarily. I would certainly worry myself about, could I live up to their standards? Gosh, I’m really not as brilliant as them. How can I even please them with what I can offer?
I would say that the most effective leaders within the legal industry are those people who are very charismatic, able to engage, and a lot to do with their personality. How engaging are they? Can you build a good relationship with them? Do you feel that you can trust them? Do they have empathy for you? Can they identify with your situation, and ensure that they’re doing the best possible job for you and your case? I think that, level of trust, engagement, empathy, that is really important.
Good leaders are basically coaches. They ask the right questions. They ensure that you are wellbeing is taken care of and that you are always learning and developing so that you can be the best person that you can be, whether that’s the best lawyer or whatever field you happen to be in.
Chuen Chuen: So whatever you are thinking, it’s so consistent. And also I can hear how trust is being built consistently. When you talked about empathy, that got my attention because a lot of the clients that support, some of them have this similar profile as well- highly skeptical. You’ve gotta work very hard to convince them because they are the gatekeepers in the organization. Oftentimes the common feedback I receive about them from their peers in a 360 feedback, is that they are highly logical, but not empathetic. Because they have to look at the evidence objectively and without emotions.
So how can empathy and logic come together hand in hand?
Lara: I would say empathy is more to do with your actual personality. You could learn to demonstrate empathy, so you could learn that as a skill knowing, oh, people expect me to be an empathetic leader. How can I demonstrate that? But the reality of whether someone truly is empathetic or not comes from within.
When it comes to leadership, if you are with someone day in, day out as you are in a workplace, that is not something someone can fake. So, if someone’s genuinely empathetic or not. So a lot of things involved in leadership are actually to do with your true personality, your true nature. And it’s combined with skills, combined with your experience.
So for example, within law firms you have a partner, and then usually they have a team of more junior, senior associates and junior lawyers. And the telling thing of when somebody is a good leader is if that partner moves firm, does their team follow them? That is when you know, Wow! That is a good leader. They’ve got an engaged team. People who like them and want to work with them. And I have witnessed over the years, several people who literally come as a package. There’ll be usually a pair or two or three people where that leader goes. And that leader themselves will say to the recruiter or to the actual law firm that they’re joining, they’ll say, I’m only coming if I bring my team. This is my senior associate I work with. This is my junior. We come as a package. It’s all of us or nothing, folks. And that is the way that a true leader speaks, because they must think wider than themselves. They have to think of the team as a whole.
But they also need to consider, is this move only good for me because I’m going to make more money or whatever. Or is this good for all of us as a whole, as a team? And I’m not going anywhere unless you are coming and I’m thinking about it. So that’s a kind of a good example I think, within the legal profession.
Chuen Chuen: So if you are a leader people love, you will have no lack of followers.
Lara: That’s it. Yes.
Chuen Chuen: A few things that you said. There are gold I want to call them out. Be excellent. How to be a leader in your profession.
You wanna know what you’re talking about because if you are vulnerable, you can be comfortable and say that, I don’t know this thing yet, but if you constantly say that you don’t know something, that means you’re not competent. So we cannot stop there. We must continue to learn the hard stuff fast, because being excellent in what you do is very important for your profession. Not only do you need to be excellent in your legal knowledge and skills, you’ll be able to argue the best possible case for the client. We need to also bring out that human side of the personality. Be able to engage, so that people trust you.
In building trust, three things that we all need. Empathy, logic, and authenticity. To truly become a leader that people want to follow no matter where you go. Personally, I feel very touched when you say, it’s me and my team of associates. It’s either you get all of us or you get none of us. And the ability to advocate for the people on your team to negotiate for the best deal possible so that it serves everyone’s interest is a true win-win for all.
Lara: Exactly. I think the true mark of leadership though is competence and warmth. So you need both to be a true leader, because without the warmth, people won’t follow you. But you do need the competence as well. But if you are too competent and no warmth, then you are cold and people don’t trust you. They don’t engage. They don’t wanna be with you. Yeah. So it’s that very fine combination of the competence and the warmth.
And especially for women, I would say many female leaders, if they’re rather too competent and come across as aggressive, they need to bring out their warmth as well to be trusted as a female leader in particular.
Chuen Chuen: I think you can effectively demonstrate your warmth and competence by giving constructive feedback. Asking good questions.
One concern from many of my female clients is if I’m nice, does it mean I’m soft, which then I have to help them reframe. Being empathetic, warm, approachable doesn’t mean you are soft. It means you need to still give the constructive feedback or a very direct negative feedback when the time calls for it, because that will help people grow. And the way you deliver it, are you delivering to tear people down or to bring them up? People can feel it.
Lara: That’s right. There definitely is a difference. And yes, no one respects a leader who’s too soft. That’s not leadership. That’s being a pushover. So there is definitely a distinction between somebody who is clear and consistent. These are the standards, these are the boundaries. But you can still be a warm person and be tough. It’s very much intertwined with communication. So I would say that very good communication skills are part of what a leader needs in their toolbox.
Chuen Chuen: Yeah. That’s one thing I wanna ask Lara, to talk about your work to keep the younger lawyers in the industry because we need them. And what is driving them out of the industry? But what’s making them give up. Is that linked to the quality of leadership in the industry? What do you think?
Lara: Yes, the legal industry is very tough. It is a long hours culture. Law is very academic, so it means that right from the start at university and law school, you are only amongst the best, the most academic. And people are very competitive and the industry itself is designed to be competitive. So that creates a certain element of competition that isn’t healthy. It’s difficult.
If you are a trainee and your firm can only keep three of you and there’s five of you. That obviously creates competition.
The truth is that modern world just has so many other opportunities. We have moved from an atmosphere where at school you were told you can be a lawyer, doctor, engineer, or an architect. But nowadays they can be a YouTuber, a professional athlete. They can be on tv, a journalist who works a nomadic lifestyle from Bali.
You have got all of these very interesting careers competing with, and of course with the threat of ai, many young people are thinking what does law look like? Aren’t people just going to use AI technology to solve all their legal problems? So, I think it just doesn’t have the glamor status or even the money that it used to. And for those reasons, if you can go and have a fun lifestyle as a YouTuber and earn five times as much. If you are a young person, I think you would find that more attractive.
So that is one of the main things, the lack of work-life balance, particularly for young women who want to start a family. It is very challenging to be in the legal profession. It’s taking longer and longer for people to reach partnership. I think that young people just have become rather disillusioned by the legal profession.
Chuen Chuen: What was that juncture in your life where you shape your own career, elevate yourself above all the norms of this very competitive industry that is designed to be a dog eat dog world? What was the moment in your life that helped you see the perspective? Like, why don’t you be a YouTuber? You’re great at creating, why not?
Lara: I think that I had blindly followed the path to be a lawyer since the age of 14.
And in my day, more than 20 years ago. If you were bright at school, you could be an international city lawyer, and so that’s what I did. And I was at some of the best firms in the world, in London. In a hyper competitive environment.
But when I reached the top, and I began to look around at the other people, and I began to see my lack of work-life balance, it is a very different landscape now. But in those days, I looked at that ladder and I said, the partners were at the top of the ladder. I actually don’t aspire to be those people. I don’t see people with work-life balance. People who spend time as a mother with their children. People who can live a life.
I was working till 3:00 AM most nights. I hardly saw my husband. He was working the same hours. We wanted to have a family. It didn’t look possible. It just was crazy. I could not see how I could do that. And so once I realized I didn’t want to get to the top of the ladder, I just thought, I have to get off.
This is not me. There are too many things that were misaligned with my personal values. And I just realized that I was in the wrong place. It wasn’t about the industry or anything, it was about me. And so once I had realized that, I took myself out.
But in those days, there were no coaches. There was no support. There was no YouTube. Nothing like that to show me that maybe all I needed was to move to a smaller firm or maybe move in-house, or maybe do something else in the legal industry. At that particular point in time, there were not those options.
So now what drives me as a coach is to ensure that anybody feeling stuck or misaligned or anything like that is able to get the support they need and genuinely explore what other options there might be in law. So I have become the coach that I wish I had in those days.
Chuen Chuen: Become the leader you never had. That is your way of elevating yourself and getting out of the ladder and identify, my life would have been so different if I had support and, I’m gonna be that person. What’s very inspiring to me is the industry, the profession is very tough, but you have that passion and a fire in you to want to coach and support people to stay on. Why is that?
Lara: I think that most people know deep down, whether it’s genuinely their calling and whether it really does suit them. And for those people, it is important that they’re supported to find the right balance.
There are lots of people who genuinely love the legal profession and doing the law, the actual work. They love it. And so those people need to be helped to make sure that the other things don’t derail them. Whereas other people, because law is quite a sort of status type of profession, people make a big deal about that. Personally, I don’t think it’s a big deal but anyway. Lots of people have a sort of high opinion about themselves as being a lawyer, and that’s why it attracts a lot of people, like a lot who fall into it or get pushed into it by parents, but they don’t genuinely belong. And so they then feel misaligned and unhappy and they struggle with doing the actual work. Those people need to be helped out of it. You have to feel that you genuinely love work itself.
I think there’s just so many unhappy people who have got stuck in the wrong profession. It’s never too late to change course. That all the things that you’ve acquired along the way, it’s not wasted. You just need to harness those skills and your personality, identify those areas where you can really be truly aligned and start to thrive.
Because if you’re on the wrong track, you will feel it. But once you’re on the right track, your energy will be back. Your passion for that will be back. But maybe you just need a few tweaks here and there. It’s not a question of sudden massive career pivot. Maybe you just need to get into a different area of the industry that you are already in.
Like me, right? I discovered that I love conversations with people and relationships and also when I was an entrepreneur, I really enjoyed sales. So marrying all of these different elements, relationships, sales, development, those are the things that now lead me to stay within the legal industry, but to be in business development instead. So I think people just need to think wider about how they can shape their own career.
And I think only when you can understand yourself truly you can understand others. So once you have that self-awareness, then you can be a better leader.
Chuen Chuen: And that seems to answer my next question, which is the one lesson leaders today must learn sooner than later.
Lara: Any great leader is not just alone. They need others. We are all part of a tribe, and we all play our part within that tribe. And to be a leader, you need followers. So you can’t do it alone. There’s no point you standing there in an echo chamber by yourself.
Chuen Chuen: Oh no. Yes. That’s a very visual one. So no point standing alone in an echo chamber. So what’s one simple action a leader in your industry can do every day to make a difference in the long run?
Lara: I think they should focus on gratitude and appreciation. Think every time you interact with another person, how can I express my gratitude and appreciation of them? Because ultimately human beings want to be seen and heard and appreciated. So if you want your team of associates to stick by you. You let them know that you care. You appreciate them. They’re doing good work.
And actually on yourself, that is your responsibility to train them and help them be better.
They are the vessel and you must pour the water in. So I would say gratitude and appreciation, and that level of warmth is going to amplify your competence. That will make you a truly great leader.
Chuen Chuen: So focus on gratitude, appreciation. Think about how you can pour the water in the vessel? Which will influence the way you coach, mentor, light the fire in them so that they can do better, think better, and excel.
It’s so good to have you on this show, Lara. I had so much fun exploring and understanding how you see the world. My personal takeaway, your unique experience in this industry and the work that you do today helps me be confident and inspired that yes, there is a future in the legal profession. This is a fulfilling and meaningful industry, and young people must continue to stay in it. And with you supporting them, I’m sure they’ll achieve it.
Lara: Thank you, Chuen Chuen. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation today.
Chuen Chuen: Thank you.
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