24: Social Enterprise Leader, Lee Mun Choon on Joy of Learning and Courage to be Vulnerable

This is a new series on Leaders People Love, where we continue to speak to diverse leaders from across industries and experience levels.

In organizations where leaders are resistant to learning new things, stagnation, and missed opportunities become prevalent. Leaders face the risk of falling behind. To remain relevant and effective, leaders must prioritize proactiveness and embrace continuous learning.

In episode 5 of the Leaders People Love series, Lee Mun Choon, Social Enterprise Leader shares that purpose, passion, trust-building, and continuous learning are essential qualities for leaders contributing to personal growth and success in one’s career.

Connect with Lee Mun Choon at https://www.linkedin.com/in/lee-mun-choon-jeremiah/

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Mun Choon: As a leader, we sometimes try so hard to hide our weakness that people will know your weakness, and you don’t need to hide. It will just eventually appear because you are at the front so often. Therefore it’s how do we lead by example, not worry about our weakness, and show the effort that you are putting in to improve yourself. 

Chuen Chuen: Welcome to agile leaders conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human center professionals and leaders to share what it means to lead in today’s workplaces. From the personal stories, find out that greatest learning that guides them through disruption and forge a better way forward. The insights will maximize your leadership potential and unlock possibilities for a better future.

My name is Yeo Chuen Chuen. I’m the author of Leaders People Love. A guide for agile leaders to creating great workplaces and happy employees. I’m delighted to have you listen in today.

My guest today is Lee Mun Choon, who began his transition journey from a military career into the private sector. Today, he’s the general manager of a healthcare training Institute, where he aspires to influence the community by educating and empowering people to care for others.

Good to see you Mun Choon. Welcome to the show. To start off, tell us your name, what you do, and why you do what you do.

Mun Choon: Mun Choon here. Currently, I’m working in CET Center. I hit the CET Center as a GM and me myself find this job very interesting. Because when I did my career transition 3 years back, I didn’t know what do I want to do. But the people find that, as I engage students in my previous organization, they see that energy and passion in me. So those are the feedback that I got, and that’s the reason why I decided to go into training.

The training institute has a very interesting mission, it is to be a social enterprise. And the things that we do is to help unemployed Singaporeans, to help the community learn more about healthcare skills and all this. So in the end, I find the things that I do here very purposeful and meaningful. And that’s why I’m here. And I’m still here.

Chuen Chuen: I can definitely hear the passion and the heart to serve and give back. Okay. For listeners the benefit, CET stands for?

Mun Choon: Continuing Education Training Center.

Chuen Chuen: This is a group of organizations in Singapore that looks after upskilling ,lifelong learning for Singaporeans. Is that right?

Mun Choon: Yes, correct. So we are accredited training center for SSG Skills Future Singapore. And we train and then we skill up individuals who are unemployed to join a new sector, which currently for me is the healthcare sector. And at the same time through the skills framework, we provide them with a skills, a W S Q certification.

Chuen Chuen: And healthcare skills, this is something that we need to seriously look at because the reality is no matter how we look on the outside, we’re aging.

Mun Choon: Yes. You’re right. So for us, because of the aging population, and over here as a healthcare training center, we have so many trainings or even knowledge on caregiving. That’s why our second social enterprise aim is to share more of this caregiving knowledge to the Singaporean, to the community. Because this is gonna be a life skill that all of us need. And as our parents grow old, as we ourselves grow old, the skills is needed.

A good example was when I was in the hospital. My wife was warded for some minor issue. So next door, the elderly lady was trying to get up, and she couldn’t even get up. I was so worried that I do the wrong thing, and I use the wrong force, or I accidentally injure her. So then it shows that the knowledge of caregiving is so important. And that’s why, I find very meaningful for me to continue to know this area.

Chuen Chuen: Definitely, what you are doing now will benefit the citizens, the nation in the long run, right? Because we already can see the pressure on the healthcare system. So what if we, the citizens and the children take on that caregiving responsibilities. Then we can take that load off hospitals.

Mun Choon: Yes, you’re right.

Chuen Chuen: Sounds like three wonderful years of that transition. I shall dig into that a little bit later. When you think about a leader, people will love, I’m sure there’s people who shaped you into who you are. So when you think about a person that people will love, who is that first one that comes to your mind?

Mun Choon: It is my ex boss. He was a very inspiring boss to me. Not because of his charisma. Of course that’s one of the key factor of a leader, but because he had a lot of confidence and trust in me. Of course this trust is built over years. Whenever there are problems, regardless big or small, he give you that trust. He has faith in you that you have done your due diligence, and he’s always at the back trusting you making sure that he will be there to answer everything. The confidence that he gives to you. I think that is a very important factor. And because of him, that’s how I also try to give my staff more trust, and also being there for them when things doesn’t go right.

Chuen Chuen: So two very important qualities. One is when problems arise, instead of how many people will react, which is to blame. Like why, whatever, how can you let this happen?

Mun Choon: Yes,


Chuen Chuen: You know, those drama What are the things that he would say when you go to him and say, look, this has happened?

Mun Choon: I remember a contractor complaining about the progress of certain things was slow. So he just asked me, what happened? I want to hear your perspective. So we just shared with him where was the gap, what was lacking, and what resulted in it. I guess it’s also after working for so many years, I’ve proven myself to him that I don’t hide issues and all this. So that’s where the trust is. And we listen and, okay, let’s meet the contractor. And then let’s have a discussion with them with the issue. And not start trying to dig further start finger pointing. I think, I have encountered bosses like that. It is not a very pleasant experience.

Chuen Chuen: You will feel attacked on the onset, right?

Mun Choon: Yes. Correct.

Chuen Chuen: And cannot be constructive. Cannot be productive. So the key thing is, I heard this, so he’s not mincing the words. He’s not beating around the bush. Like asking things like, so how is the relationship with the contractor going? To try to fish it out.

Mun Choon: Straight to the point. Yes, you’re right.

Chuen Chuen: That’s very good. So no blame culture. And of course, you have demonstrated over time that you’re trustworthy and he has belief in you. He has seen the best in you. So he trusts in that character. You did mention about charisma earlier. This is something that I think listeners would be very curious about. Because a lot of introverted leaders feel very concerned, I don’t have charisma. How do I be a good leader in people’s eyes? What do you think?

Mun Choon: I’ll share one experience about this. I think introvert extrovert is very misunderstood, reasons that all of us use for ourselves. I say I’m an introvert, but if you look at the way I’m talking to you now. Are you sure he’s an introvert? You can talk like everything under the sky. The thing is that, my experience was with my son when I brought him to a drama training center.

The trainer asked me, what do you want out of this training session? I said, can you help me to make him speak up more and be an extrovert? So he told me, I don’t think I can do that. You can’t do that. I pay, and you say you can’t do that. But I didn’t say out, so she told me, if he’s an introvert, he will always be an introvert, but I can teach him the technique how to step out of the shell and be extrovert that he needs to be. And then that sets me thinking about all my experience in my life. In Polytechnic, I never liked to stand in front of class to present. Eventually, when I joined the service, that was a time that I need to stand up in front and present. And over time I learn. And then I realize, yeah, it takes time and practice for me to be able to step out of the shell. And all introverts, once we are done, when we step back into the shell, we are all just be drained out and tired.

So I think introvert and extrovert is just a factor of better ability of us to step up. When we are out of the shell, be able to engage people. And being sincere. I think being sincere is one thing that people can feel the most. Being sincere, always talk to them at their level. I think that is very important.

And one thing I like most about some of those leaders that I really admire are those when the sky drop down, they’re still cool as a cucumber. As a leader, we also need to keep our cool.

At a recent seminar, someone mentioned as a leader we are always lonely. We have no one to talk to, to share our problems. But that’s our job. To shelter the employees so that they do what they can do.

Chuen Chuen: So be as cool as a cucumber, even when the sky falls. So I like that you unpack this shell. It’s great that you met this trainer who say, no, I cannot convert your son from introvert to extrovert. So here I also wanna tell all the clients, I cannot turn introvert leaders into extrovert.

Mun Choon: Yeah. Correct.

Chuen Chuen: They must know when to step into the shell and step out of it. And that’s where that agility, that flexibility exists in all of us. That’s why we talk about neuroplasticity. Two things I hear for introverted leaders who want to develop charisma, maybe how we define charisma needs to be checked as well. Do we equip ourselves with the right skills to present and engage, and step out when we need to speak for ourselves, for our team members, and present matters, right? Sincerity is that human relatable quality that will build connections that you will melt anybody. It’s not about pretending to be somebody who you are not.

And the second one which I also always encourage my clients to look at, what is your recovery routine? Top athletes, after they do a sprint, there’s a recovery routine.

Mun Choon: I shared, leadership is lonely. In a company where you are at the top, you’re lonely. But there’s always friends who are of the same level as you. There are times when you’re tired, you just need to sit down and talk to them. Share your problems. Because just like my experience, although it’s not about leadership, but in the transition. Everyone’s transition in a career is unique, and I find my solution to my transition talking to many people who have walked the path.

 So I think talking to friends who understand the challenges you’re going through allows you to relax and release some of your tension. But of course, if you ask me, as an introvert, I just want my me time. When you are tired, you just need a me time to step back.

Chuen Chuen: Yes. A lot of self-assurance I’m also hearing. A lot of people I work with, they are not comfortable with asking time and space, so they suppress instead of being aware and connected with themselves. That’s why personal mastery is such a big thing.

Mun Choon: I think, the key thing is knowing yourself and finding ways to help yourself cope. Because that coping mechanism is unique to each individual. And also about mindfulness. When mindfulness first came out, I also don’t know how does mindfulness help you in coping with stress. As you read more. You try out a bit more, then you start to understand, oh! Mindfulness lets you focus on the present and not be distracted by the past and by what is yet to happen. So there are many methods out there that helps us cope.

Chuen Chuen: So self-awareness, very important. And imagine learning how to breathe all over again.

Mun Choon: Oh, the breathing technique was quite interesting.

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. I’m sure everybody is breathing, but are we breathing the best way we can? Maybe it’s the better way to breathe that will keep us as cool as a cucumber. Because staying in the present is how we make a difference.

So in your area of responsibility, running a social enterprise that’s also a training institute, what have you learned about leadership that you try to pass on?

Mun Choon: Okay. As I shared, to build trust is not overnight. And I always believe the foundation to a strong relationship is trust. And in leadership, it’s all about relationship. And because we are managing people, trust is important. But trust is a very big word to say. So then how do you engender trust? So for me I keep this leadership core value close at heart. It’s this thing called the leadership by example.

Because as a leader, we sometimes try so hard to hide our weakness that people will know your weakness, and you don’t need to hide. It will just eventually appear. Because you are at the front so often. Therefore it’s how do we lead by example, not worry about our weakness, and show the effort that you are putting in to improve yourself.

I think that’s the key thing. So that’s why to build trust, we need to really be there with them, so that you understand what are the challenges they have. Listen to them. Talk with them, and eventually leads to trust building. So that’s my approach.

Chuen Chuen: So many good things, and it’s very aligned with what I’m trying to teach in leadership storytelling. Because one of the ways we try to apply leadership storytelling is how to build trust. How do you build a trustworthy leadership brand? The issue is not about whether you are trustworthy or not. It’s whether others think you are trustworthy or not.

Mun Choon: Yes, correct.

Chuen Chuen: So you’re right. Trust is such a big word. It’s a complex word. That’s why we need to educate people and show people through actions. So one of the effective ways, leadership by example. And I like the lightness that you have when you talk about weaknesses. Don’t bother to hide it. People will see it.

Mun Choon: Yeah. People will see it. Knowing your weakness and trying to overcome it, people will appreciate it. I think the most important people will respect you for it.

Chuen Chuen: They respect you because of the effort, not because you have no weakness.

Mun Choon: Yeah. Correct. No weakness become flawless.

Then they’ll be worried, well

this one, oh my God, he’s gonna come here and pinpoint everything and I have no answer for it. In that sense, it also inspire your staff that they have witnessed (your weakness) and that they can also do their best.

Chuen Chuen: So your consistent effort to be aware of the weakness and take constructive steps to address it is infectious. That’s how the passion is also infectious. Don’t be too perfect. Of course, if you are super good in everything you do, you are perfect. But there are instances where being too perfect makes you unrelatable.

Mun Choon: Yes, that’s true. But, it depends on individuals. I have bosses who are super perfectionists. But they make sure everything is covered before they start to do anything. It works. But there are also bosses who say, I think it is good enough. Let’s try it, and just tweak as we go along. So there’s different approach to things, and I wouldn’t say which model is more superior, but it depends on the context and the scenario that you are encountering. And of course, when you’re running a crisis center in the organization, you wouldn’t have time to be so perfect. So it is very contextual.

Chuen Chuen: Sure. What is it about the bosses who are perfectionists, who are very good, they’re very sharp. What is it they did that makes it work?

Mun Choon: The sharp and perfectionist type of bosses tend to spot your blind spot. So if it compliments you, you’ll be useful, but it goes back to my same point about trust. If I’m a perfectionist and I distrusted you, I point finger. Are you sure this right? And you doubted me, that will break everything in your leadership. But if you are a perfectionist and there is trust between you and me. And as my boss, bringing areas that I may have missed that blind spot, we are augmenting each other. I think that’s most important.

Chuen Chuen: So it’s okay if we have skills and strengths in a certain area. Use these to compliment your team by augmenting the entire team, pointing out blind spots. Instead of taking the fault finding stance which will deflate people.

Mun Choon: Because we are dealing with human, the communication needs to go on. But me being an introvert, sometimes I don’t like to talk a lot. But at work, it is about taking effort to step up. To talk and to explain the why. When I do something, I also want to explain the why, so then they understand and they don’t misread my intention. So it’s important to share the why, so that people understand and they can align.

Chuen Chuen: Communication is key. Some leaders will say, we can never over communicate. What’s your take on this?

Mun Choon: I do agree that we can never over communicate. Because every time you need to push down information to your staff, they need to be aligned. You must always remember that at their level, they are also bombarded with a lot of information from their work. There will be a time they’ll be saturated, and they won’t be absorbing information. So as a leader, there will be a time we over communicate but we need to know what are the things necessary to be communicated. If not, you’ll become noises to them. And then a distraction. And then the worst is things are not clear, then the next things change, and then you communicate again. And people ask, what is happening? Why are there so many versions?

Chuen Chuen: The discernment and the judgment. That’s why I’m very worried when some people tell me we can never over communicate. I say, actually we can. If the, when, what, and how are not appropriate, your communication becomes noise. And you don’t want it to become noise, you want it to become wisdom, right?

I can hear a lot of the thoughtful thinking behind, and every word or every action you take, there’s an intention. So the love intentionality. That’s very strong.

I wanna ask about your career transition, how you decided to start a new career at 45, 46? plus the people who are coming to the training institute. When they lose a job and we wanna upskill them into healthcare workers, what are the barriers? How can we help them? Because we have a bigger group of people in their forties, fifties?

Mun Choon: We accept range from twenties and above. But career transition, the age is 40 and above. Those are considered as mid career transition. Around the organization there are people who refuse to grow, and just happy with what they have.

Yesterday I attended a talk. There’s a question about how to encourage individual’s urgency in learning. To me, there’s only two ways.

One is you hit the wall and you realize, oh no, I got to do something about it. So for me the wall is near. At 50 you have to retire. Or do you want to wait until 50? Or do it earlier at 45?

Second the agency comes in a form of, if this training doesn’t lead me to anything, I will not learn. If I were to learn this, I will have a chance to get a promotion. I will have a chance to get a better life. There is that motivation to learn. So I think in the organization, my approach in managing some of my staff is that, for the younger staff, I’ll tell them my years here with them is as much as possible, to value add into them.

Sometimes you need to tell. Sometimes you need to encourage. But that messaging must continuously be there. That’s how you slowly shift the mindset. So that’s how I look at it.

Chuen Chuen: So for organizations, they are transforming or want to ride the wave of disruption. I think learning organization is very important. And you cannot have a learning organization unless you have learning individuals.

Mun Choon: Yes. Correct. It start from the individual. That’s why you’re called an organization, right?

Chuen Chuen: Yes. And these tensions that we constantly see and hear about in different organizations, some are innovating, transforming faster. And then there are those that are stuck. When you break it down this way, it is going back to fundamentals, how to raise an individual’s agency to learn regardless of age. And we are all motivated by different factors. It could be an unpleasant end is coming, the wall is near. There is immediate need for us to get out of our comfort zone to do something. The second one, I think purpose. That also has to do with the purpose of work.

Mun Choon: Yeah, that’s true. Purpose of work, in the stage of life. For each and every one of us, we have a different purpose. When you’re younger, your whole purpose was to stabilize your family. Answer to the basic needs. Making sure I have a room above my head. Or even help my parents so that my brother can finish school. Those are our purpose, and we work hard for that purpose.

Similarly in my organization as a social enterprise, I keep reminding all them that purpose. And for us, because it’s in the mission statement, that purpose is very clear. They all know what they are doing when they go out. Everyone that graduate and even after their training, it answers to their whole purpose, it’s to help someone. To me, social enterprise is about helping. So if you find meaning and purpose in that, then you’ll find that drive and passion. So purpose is very important.

Chuen Chuen: The meaning of what in with relative for our life will change depending on our seasons in life. Everyone is purposeful, meaningful, so everyone would be different. For social enterprise, we are attracting people who wanna help others. For other sectors, the purpose would look and sound feel different.

I like what you said earlier, leaders and organizations are preparing people for life. Value adding to them. We are encouraging them to learn by telling, nagging, educating, broadcasting, inspiring, encouraging. We are value adding to them as they progress in career, which is not just promotion. We are teaching them the various ways they can fish. Or acquire essential skills. They will prepare them for the next stage in life. And when they leave us, at least we want to tell ourselves that, Hey, I’ve done my best to prepare this person for the next milestone in life.

Mun Choon: Yes, totally agree. And that is my own purpose. So when I start with the purpose to help, at work it’s the students, the community, my staff. At home of course you help your kids and your family. I took about three years to think through what I really want, and that purpose becomes much clearer to me.

Chuen Chuen: I’m also wondering for another angle. As leaders, as the higher we go, the more people reports to us, right? Directly and indirectly. And we know that diversity in the people we work with, what is purposeful to each of them will be different. How can you find synergy knowing that the purpose will be different across the board?

Mun Choon: Work-wise, the objective that we want to achieve for the organization is more or less synchronized in a sense that you joined the company. What is your whole purpose? What do you want to achieve? So for me, for all the new staff. I have a coffee with them within the first three months. It’s to really sit down and talk to them and find out from them, especially for the younger ones where do they see themselves? One year, three years. Sometimes, they never even think about that before. So by asking them that question, it helps them to aim. And when they share more about what they see themselves one year, three years down the road, then you more or less will start to take away some of the things that they want to achieve.

So that’s my way of trying to align each and every one of them. In the organization, each of us comes with our own purpose. To find out as their leader, and for me to at best ability value add to them as possible.

Chuen Chuen: It is okay if you ask them this existential question and they cannot answer because even making them think about it will value add to them.

Mun Choon: Yeah, correct.

Chuen Chuen: I think leaders today, the difficulty level and the bar is quite high. So what’s one lesson you believe leaders today must learn sooner, better than later?

Mun Choon: Every one of us is a leader in our own rights. And to be that leader, be it you’re leading an organization or you’re leading yourself, or you’re leading a small team, I personally find this thing very important. It’s called proactiveness to be able to be on your toes all the time and sit and observe the environment and to learn and unlearn and relearn to all the things around you that is changing.

The environment is changing. Like what you say, everything is happening all around us. Climate change, covid just over, and market go down, market go up. So then it is important for us to know what is the factors that is changing around us and also have this proactive approach to know, to learn what drives all this change in our environment.

Then of course, the most important is the human portion, the social part. This is the one that you need, and they are the most fluid in actively learn what are the things that they want, what are things that is useful for you to deliver certain things?

So to me, as a leader in your own rights, or as a leader for organization, proactiveness is important.

Chuen Chuen: And this quality can be translated into any area of change, whether it is new change, emerging change, or future change, right?

Mun Choon: Yes, correct.

Chuen Chuen: There’s a chapter in my book that says, bring back the sense of wonderment.

Mun Choon: Define wonderment.

Chuen Chuen: When you describe this spirit of being proactive, have the hunger to learn, unlearn, relearn continuously to be curious. That’s sense of wonderment.

Mun Choon: So that sense of wonderment, especially now in the learning science. I think for Singaporean, we “chey” so easily. It’s because we are so accessible to the internet, and therefore sometimes, you ask the question, the answer is there. It’s at your fingertips. But I think, when it comes to training it, it is how to bring them to that level of learning that they are able to apply what they know. Once you bring them to the application, they will not “chey” anymore. Because the educational profile of every one of us has went up. The level of that hurdle is even much higher for trainer to achieve. This wonderment is not easy. And it takes a lot of effort and a lot of passion for a trainer who wants to sit down and think through what are the best method for me to deliver this training so that they can achieve this outcome?

 So it takes a lot. It’s not easy. I do agree with you.

I also have a moment of reflection as you are speaking. So I’m a speaker, trainer, coach, author, even I have to now work harder, to be proactive. To bring the quality of experience to the next level. Yeah. Because the learners today are wiser. They have access to a lot of information and we can not differentiate or add value by offering information. It is insight. Can I bring the right insight? When the learning can be applied, they’ll see the purpose.

So that’s why, in the institute, we always believe the transfer of learning is so important. That’s why we wanted all our students to go for clinical attachment. Because in clinical attachment, they really exercise what they learn. And that’s where they reach the second level of internalization. And then they, aha. I can also do this. So that brings them to a different level in the whole learning science.

Chuen Chuen: For leaders especially, it’s like I’ve to learn for myself. I have to make sure my team is learning and then all this whirlwind is happening outside. Oh my God. Learning fatigue. How do you deal with it?

Mun Choon: If you are very keen on the topic, I don’t think there’ll be learning fatigue. That’s why I say, the purpose is important. If that purpose and that resolve is not strong enough, you will not want to learn it.

As I shared I came from military context. I’m never good at running business. Business, dollar, and cents was never part of my agenda in everything that I do in my past 20 years career. But because now I have to do this, it leads to the whole overall bigger purpose. If I don’t generate enough income, how am I going to help people, right? How am I going to have time to value add to my people? So then it makes you think of ways and start to research more. Over this past one year, I have learned so much about financial statement. That’s how I use purpose to create more interest for myself to learn.

Purpose driven. And I think the important is finding things to challenge yourself. And then that will keep you going and wanting to learn more, read more.

Chuen Chuen: That’s part of my decision making process when I decided to do a doctor of business administration program. I can resonate with that. It’s that you’re looking for something to challenge you. You’re waiting for somebody to ask you a very tough question. So tough that you can’t wrap your head around it.

Mun Choon: So the other experience, I’m not very good at language. I dislike Chinese, and I don’t do that well in English either. That’s why I end up in the engineering school. But throughout my military career, I realized, wow, language is so important. So then, I took it as a challenge to get the master of Arts, and there’s 35,000 words of writing, and I’ve never written so many words in my life. And that challenged me. Now, I’m very confident to tell myself if I want to put the effort to do a good piece of writing, I can do it. And that was very defining for myself also to be able to overcome something that I have fear of.

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. And that’s such a parallel of the example that you are aware of your weakness. Yes. But at least show people that you are putting effort to get better. And at the end of it, when you have accomplished it, you’ll also give yourself a pat on the back.

So what’s a simple action you think a leader can do every day to make a difference to that team in the long run?

Mun Choon: When I took on this role as a leader we become very result driven. Trying to strive for the top line, the bottom line. Sometimes you forgot the people out there. And now I make it a point that every day I will walk out of the office to talk to at least one or two person, and walk around to see anyone that I can engage.

As a leader, because you’re leading people, therefore you need to be with them and allow them to hear you. Not in a large group formal setting, but in a informal session to go out there and engage every single one of them, every day. I think it also makes them feel that, hey, I’m not a digit in the organization. Someone is noticing me. And that is important.

Chuen Chuen: Yes. Leaders are leading people, not things. So as leaders, the higher we are, the more we need to feel the pulse of the organization. And we can only do that if we are not sitting in the office clearing emails, writing reports, reading reports. Go out there and connect with people and ask them questions. Just noticing. You see that discipline just every day go out, speak to one, two people.

Mun Choon: So in the morning when you come in, you see the first person, Hey, how is everything? Want to go down for a coffee?

Sometimes in the informal setting, they’ll share a few more things. And that’s where you hear the informal stuff and you can piece a better picture of what’s happening.

Chuen Chuen: Hearing things in informal setting is far better than getting an official report.

Mun Choon: Yes.

Chuen Chuen: It’s been a great conversation. I learned so much. You gave me many moments of reflection. It’s been a joy to have you here. Thank you so much, Mun Choon.

Mun Choon: Thanks for your time.

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